How to Get into & Pay For College
In the video, How to Get into & Pay For College, guest speaker and enrollment consultant at SUNY Polytech Institute, Rit Fuller, discusses the admission process and what it takes to get into the college of your choice. Rit also talks about what your education will cost you, why it is so expensive these days, and what options you have to pay for it.
Watch the video below, or scroll down to read the transcript.
College admissions process - how do you get in?
The cost of college
Why is the cost of college increasing?
What options do you have to pay for college?
Brendan Sheehan: We're in good shape, so let's get started. Want to introduce you to Rit Fuller. Rit is a client of ours, and has been a client of ours for several years now. He watched a couple of our webinars that we've done in the past, but this is, I think, our fourth webinar that we've done. You can find them on the Waymark website. Right at the home page, there's a button that says view videos. This will be posted probably in about a week. He watched a couple of our videos in the past and graciously offered to offer his expertise on financial aid and getting into college so I took him up on the offer. He's very well qualified to speak on this. He currently is a vice ... Actually, I don't know if you're currently, but recently you've been the vice president of enrollment management at SUNY Polytech Institute. He's an enrollment consultant currently. Was the dean of admissions and financial aid at Hamilton, which I jokingly call the Harvard of upstate New York, and director of admissions at Johns Hopkins and the Rochester Institute of Technology.
Brendan Sheehan: During this workshop, we'll cover a few things. First, the admissions process and what it takes to actually get into the school of your choice. The costs. Why is it so expensive and why is that cost going up? And ultimately what you ultimately will pay for the college of your choice. And then, I think what most people are waiting for to hear is the final thing, which is the types of financial aid that are out there and how you can qualify for it, and any secrets that he may be able to impart upon us. With that said, I'll introduce Rit, and then I'll ask him the first question. Rit, anything that you have to say to welcome the group?
Rit Fuller: Hi, Brendan. Greetings everyone, I'm glad to be here. I hope we can help you make a little progress in the college search for your son or daughter, or grandson or granddaughter. There are ways to do this better. One of the things I've learned over time is that good students are going to find good schools and they're going to have an excellent experience. It can work that way. But, there are ways to do this process that will make it a little less stressful on a family, and hopefully on your student. Brendan, you mentioned Hamilton. I think the only thing we have on Harvard is a lot more snow. But, it is a beautiful day here today, so I'm glad to be doing this. I believe that this whole process is a series of small victories rather than one big thing happening and all of a sudden your child is going to college and you can't afford it. Attending and being a part of a webinar like this today is, I think, a small victory.
Brendan Sheehan: All right, sounds good. Let's start with the disclaimers. Obviously, with anything that we do here at Waymark, we have to disclaim everything. Just very, very high level. This content is general in nature. Please consult with a legal tax professional, or even Rit. That's something that we'll talk about in a little bit. He is accepting new clients for individual one on one sessions to talk about the college process, and he could actually help you. So, if this is something that is of interest to you, we will have his contact information at the end and you can reach out to him directly. But, all this is very general in nature. Please do not take action on any of this without consulting the proper expert. Rit, let's get started.
Rit Fuller: Brendan, can I just interconnect also that an initial conversation with any of your clients regarding this would be free. I'd be happy to see where they're at and if I can be helpful. If there's an interest in moving on, then that would be a different story, but this is meant to be helpful.
Brendan Sheehan: All right, thank you, Rit. I really appreciate that. That's a very gracious offer of yours. All right, so let's get started. The first thing is, getting into college. One of the things that I was told way back when, when I was applying for college a long time ago was that just having a perfect SAT score or a 4.0 is not enough to get in there. You have to be able to tell a story. Someone that has a unique talent like maybe they're the state champion bassoonist has a better leg up than someone that, as I said, has a perfect SAT score. Rit, why don't you start with that? What are some of the things? What are colleges looking for? How important are SAT scores, et cetera?
Rit Fuller: I hope we can demystify some of this in the next few minutes, this whole process. As these charts will indicate, especially this one, it's kind of like the best of times and the worst of times for college applicants. As you can see at that chart to the right here, only 1.2% of the colleges in America accept less than 10% of the students who apply. The myth is that you can't get in anywhere anymore, and that's really not the case as you go through this chart. The good news is there are plenty of opportunities if you look at those accepting over 50%. I mean, it's more than half the colleges in America. The bad news is an awful lot of your clients and top students will want to be applying to those schools that have become only more selective, as you can see at the very top.
Rit Fuller: What are they looking for? In general, one way to look at this is a big funnel. At the top of that funnel, at virtually every college, other than those who specialize maybe in music or art or something like that, would be this. The high school record. What was available for a student to take? What did they take? How did they do? And, if available, how did they do relative to their peers? That's going to be at the top of any funnel. It's how you've proved yourself in the academic environment on a daily basis over a period of time.
Rit Fuller: Second to that, if SATs are part of the requirement of getting into an individual school, then they're important. There's good news and bad news there, as well. Are SAT scores important? Absolutely, because they are one measure. If you're working at an institution that attracts students from all over the country, everybody is getting the same SATs and you can standardize one way of looking at somebody from Massachusetts or Montana, or Mississippi for that matter. The good news, there's an awful lot of schools, in fact there are over 1,000 schools in America, that you can apply to that don't have required SATs. That's something on fairtest.org. It's a website people should go to. F-A-I-R-T-E-S-T.org, and you can find out about those. But SAT scores, if they're required, they're important. One piece of advice, your student will be getting a middle 50%, they should be looking at the middle 50% of a college. In other words, not look at their number, whatever that might be, as being better than or not possibly good enough because there's 25% on either side.
Rit Fuller: But then, there's everything else. So, the top of the funnel is the academic record, standardized testing. And then there's what I like to call promise of contribution. Talk here about enhancing a student's chances of getting in. If I admit you to my institution, what are you going to bring to us in addition to your stellar admissible academic credentials? What have you shown outside of class that might help make our community better once you get here? The advice I'd have there is depth almost always exceeds breadth in terms of being important. Their activities that they've been involved with, whether it's student clubs, whether it's sports, community service, volunteer activities. Something that shows that you have passion beyond, in addition to your academics.
Rit Fuller: References, those are of course important, but students need to remember they can start compiling those in 10th and 11th grade. Teachers you've gotten along with and know you as an engaged student. Specific to the application, what can the student do to enhance their chances of getting in are the essays. It's a whole nother topic, but I will just say this. That people get overly stuck on those relative to their importance in the admission process. They're all reviewed, but there's an expectation of a good essay, good grammar, solid work. It's just got to mirror what you've already done. There are probably 5% to 10% of essays that help a candidate actually get over the hump one way or the other, but I think they're a little, probably, overrated in this. Early decision-
Brendan Sheehan: Interesting.
Rit Fuller: ... Yeah, it is. It is interesting. People agonize over these and colleges make it worse. I will say, I've had some experience at some consulting at an Ivy League institution. I have a son now working at an Ivy League admission office. The good news is, they review every application. Every application gets looked at, just in case. They just don't want to miss that incredible nugget out there. Having said all these things, that bassoonist that you mentioned or the person that wants to be the prima ballerina, or whatever it might be, that can definitely make a difference. As does being a 300 pound lineman or a 100 yard dash sprinter, those kinds of things. The highly selected institutions want to be good at everything they do, so that can make a difference. But there's no question that the substance is going to be the academic record.
Rit Fuller: There's a lot of terminology that people are going to need to learn. Early decision is one way in which a student can apply. When they're a senior, there are going to be a variety of options, but early decision is the one that typically has a mid-November deadline. It's in effect saying to the college if you admit me, I'm coming. You have to withdraw their applications, you can't apply anywhere else, and the college is probably going to look at you slightly more favorably, and some institutions a lot more favorably. It does vary, but I think what surprises people is that even the most selective colleges in the country enroll almost half their classes, in some cases more, early decision. So, it is something that requires you to be out there earlier to know that a place is your choice. Now, compare that to early action, which is an earlier deadline, like November 1st. The advantage there, a student does not have to commit. They have until May 1st of the following year.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it. So, to summarize this slide, that graph on the right is pretty much saying that, and I know that it's kind of a busy slide, but pretty much what it's saying is that only about 20% of colleges, which is pretty much ... Actually, let me get my little pen here. 20% of the colleges have admissions rates of 50% or better.
Rit Fuller: Yep.
Brendan Sheehan: Which means that 80% of colleges have admissions rates of 50% or higher. So, it's pretty much saying that there's probably a college for everyone. Even some of the poorest students, there is a college out there for them.
Rit Fuller: Yeah, I think that's a great interpretation from this. As we'll see from a later slide, there are those colleges that are below that 50% that are also going to work hard scholarship-wise to try to enroll you. That's where this can be the best of both worlds. There are great institutions for people to attend.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it. In terms of what's important, what's not important, SAT scores are still important for a lot of schools. Academic record is going to be important. One of the things I heard from you, which made my ears perk up, is that it's not quantity, it's quality. So that instead of being in 15 different organizations and student council and this, that, and the other thing, it's how involved you are with each one of those. You could be heavily involved in three to five and really be making a difference and that looked at more favorably than someone that's just touching 15 different organizations. With regards to the early decision, it definitely seems like early decision gives you a little bit of a leg up. With some schools, a lot of a leg up.
Rit Fuller: Exactly, yep. Depending [crosstalk 00:13:36] on what year the [crosstalk 00:13:37] student is, the direction the student is going also makes a big difference. That is, how they've done their junior year and beginning of the senior year can really enhance or detract from a student's candidacy.
Brendan Sheehan: Interesting. That is a very important, and I know we'll get into that in a little bit, but it definitely seems like that's a key time for the student and the family to really pay attention to all this.
Rit Fuller: Yeah, I think it's-
Brendan Sheehan: Got it.
Rit Fuller: ... I mean, some of the decisions you make in 9th grade affect your curriculum for the rest of your high school experience. So really, to some degrees, the college search starts then, by those decisions. It also includes what activities and things you start doing in 9th grade. The actual college search, the best advice I can give is beginning of the junior year to have a whole year plus to be able to look at colleges and weight the options and determine fit and all those kinds of things.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it, okay. Let's move on. Obviously, a big topic of conversation is the cost, and that's one of the reasons why we're talking about this right now. Based on this chart, what it's pretty much saying is that college has pretty much doubled over the last 30 years. Putting my financial planner hat on, the first thing I think about is, is that just natural inflation or is there something else at work here? Talk to us a little bit about the cost of college, and then the next slide we'll talk a little bit about while it might be, as I said, gloomy that the cost of college has gone up so much, really how much are families actually spending? Rit, why don't you talk a little bit about that?
Rit Fuller: You know, in terms of cost, it's hard to defend what's happening in higher education, especially at private institutions, over a long period of time, but I would say that a couple of the drivers, in addition to inherent inflation and things, would be two big things. Labor and technology. Labor, with benefits and everything that goes with it, especially the healthcare, as everybody knows. These are labor intensive institutions. Technology, if you're an institution of higher education and aren't able to offer the latest in technology, or as close to it as possible, then you're doing a disservice. At these very top institutions, there's been this arms race. When one institution adds a building or adds something, then the next one has to do the same and so forth. It's, I think, part of the reason is because the man was suggesting they could. May or may not be a good reason, but I think that's where we've gotten to where we are now, where the highest end Ivy League type institutions are about $75,000 a year.
Brendan Sheehan: Wow, that's amazing. How much are people actually spending?
Rit Fuller: Well, this is just one way to look at this, but tuition discounting is really important for places to look at their financial health. As you can see, for a first time undergraduate student, if you go all the way to the right, what this means, in effect, is for every dollar a college takes in in tuition they are giving back 52.2%, or 52 cents on the dollar. And this is the average. I guess what I'd say to this is that the extremes here already range up into the 70s. In fact, an institution I know specifically, low 70 discount. So, you give them a dollar in tuition, they give you 70 cents back. What this says to the individual is that, and this is merit money, this is not need based money. This is money that they're taking away from what they could spend on ... I'm sorry, this is need based and merit based money. So, this is money they could use towards faculty and things like that, and now they have to give it back just to try to enroll students. The financial model is frightening for a lot of places, but it does make it more affordable for the average individual, even if they don't have a financial need.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it, okay. Well, let's get to the part of the presentation I think everyone has been waiting for, and that is how do families qualify for the best financial aid package? This right here. There we go. One of the things I'd like you to talk about, Rit, and I know you have on the slide, and I'll bring up that slide in a second, here we go, is the different types of aid that are out there. What you introduced me to, which I was not aware of, is that every college has a net price calculator, and we actually went through Harvard's net price calculator. That's something that, if you're taking notes right now, take that down. Net price calculator. Every single college has one of these. What it allows you to do is get a ballpark idea of how much aid a school would be willing to provide to you using just a very rough calculator. And then, what are some of the important dates, and any guidelines. I'll let you take it from here, Rit.
Rit Fuller: No, that really does, as an umbrella, speak to all this. I mean, this slide is showing what the process is. It's a very simplistic look at it, but as you can see, it really triggered on the FAFSA. Any need based aid is going to be triggered by the free application for free student aid. It's what it is. It's available October 1st of the student's senior year of high school and it will calculate using their methodology, what they believe you as a family can contribute to a student's education. What a college then does with that is it ends up being your financial award. So, it's the cost of attendance minus your estimated family contribution. Gives you what's left, your financial need. Each college will approach that differently, how much they can give you in need based aid or merit aid, or loans, or work, et cetera. The financial aid package.
Rit Fuller: Just in terms of terminology, people that will talk about boy, the tuition is really high somewhere, well, tuition is probably the highest now, about $50,000 or so at some places. It's the cost of attendance because living on campus, travel, books, personal expenses, all those kinds of things. At the high end now, as I said, we're at probably $75,000. The good news is, if you look at what Brendan's going to show you here, is really very, very helpful, I think. As you can see, Harvard is one example. $51,900 room and board, book, and personal expenses. You put all that together and it's $73,800, but it's actually probably a little bit more than that because there's no real travel costs, so let's say $75,000. Round figure. Undoable? Well, depending on your family contribution, it may be a lot more doable than you think. Here's the painful irony of these highly selective institutions. If you get in one of these places and have a financial need, they are going to do their absolute best to make it financially possible for you to attend.
Brendan Sheehan: That'd be a good segue, Rit. Why don't we take a look at that? This is Harvard's net price calculator. What you see here, and we looked at a few of these prior to actually getting on the webinar, this definitely is the most user friendly of the ones that we've looked at. It asks for things like where are you? The United States. The state that you live in? Massachusets. How many people in the family? How many kids are in college? What your income is, from just wages, investment income, any kind of business or farm income, real estate income, et cetera. And then the parents' assets versus the student's assets. Those assets are cash and investments, but also equity in a business, real estate if you have rental real estate, et cetera, et cetera.
Brendan Sheehan: What this is pretty much saying, and this again was eye opening to me and is very different than what I would have expected, Harvard is know, obviously, for its big endowment. Because it's got a multi-billion dollar endowment, to Rit's point, if they want you, they will find a way to get you there. So, what this is pretty much saying is that using those metrics that we put in, this student could be eligible for getting a good chunk of his or her entire tuition taken care of. This is saying a $57,000 scholarship, which would leave the family with only having to spend $16,400. Again, this is an extreme. Harvard is one of the most expensive, but they also offer some of the biggest scholarships. Is there anything that you would add?
Rit Fuller: I would add to this, a couple things. One, there are no loans in this. There are approximately 30 colleges in America where if a student is accepted, they're going to end up with a financial aid package that doesn't include loans, which is pretty amazing. You will see at the bottom of this, a student is going to be expected to work while they're there. $3,000. That's a work study type of a job. Cafeteria, laboratory, whatever it might be. But there are other places like this. I think Brendan and I found the Harvard site just easy to review, but the actual metrics that go in here, you could replicate that at some of the other more well off and well known institutions in the country.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it, okay. Let's go back to our other slides here. Just a little bit of a housekeeping item. There is something at the bottom of everyone's screen that says Q&A. If you have any questions that come up along the way, feel free to use that. I will see it and let Rit know that there's a questions that someone has out there. Let's keep going until we actually get some of those questions. Rit, again, one of the things that you had mentioned a little earlier was that freshman year is important, but it definitely seems like sophomore, junior year are really those times that you really have to be very, very serious about the whole college search process. Talk to us a little bit about some of those guideline dates. If you're thinking about a child who enters freshman year, yes, poor selection is important freshman year, but really, when does it really get serious and the student has to be thinking about how they're creating their story to pitch to each college, but then financially what the parents have to start thinking about. Do they start deferring some income coming in and maybe accelerating some expenses that they could potentially have to make them look a little less well off in the eyes of the college? Talk a little bit about that, some strategies that people could use.
Rit Fuller: Well, I think you've made the most important point first of all, Brendan, that there are strategies that could be employed to enhance, legally, ethically, your financial circumstance to maximize your potential for financial aid. I think the last date to really impact the first year would be the family's December of the junior year for tax purposes, because that's the year that's ultimately going to be instrumental in determining need for the freshman year. So, up to December of the junior year will make a difference. The FAFSA form does not take into account home equity, however a number of these schools that are also going to be generous with financial aid are going to require families to fill out something called the profile form. The profile, which is not yet available, the profile for the college scholarship service will take into account things like home equity and provide a different basis for which you'll be reviewed as a candidate for a family for financial aid. It doesn't always mean that the estimated family contribution will be less because of that, but it looks a little deeper into financial circumstances, which leads to a good point, to the last bullet here about negotiation.
Rit Fuller: A couple things about financial aid. One is you should apply. Two, you have to meet the deadlines. Number three, institutions expect you to negotiate. Not just that some will and some won't, but almost there's an expectation because of the stakes involved are so great and circumstances are gray. These forms are cut and dry. The ability to communicate with somebody in a financial aid office at a given institution is important and something to be pursued. Your ability to negotiate may or may not lead to additional resources out of the institution, but considering what happens the first year tends to happen for all four years, another $1,000 is more or likely to be $3,000 or $4,000, so therefore worth doing.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it, okay. So, it sounds like the magic date that people really should be thinking about is it starts getting serious December of junior year.
Rit Fuller: Yes.
Brendan Sheehan: That's where they should actually start. Again, from a financial planning standpoint, would that be a time that if you had the ability, let's say you're a business owner or let's say that you have a good relationship with your boss, that you'd want to get your bonuses and things like that prior to the end of the year junior year so that the January moving forward, so January through June of junior year and then September through December of senior year, that's kind of that magic year that they're paying attention to? Or am I wrong with those dates?
Rit Fuller: No, that definitely makes sense. I think you probably want to have the conversations that end up with a transaction happening by December. That would obviously have to start earlier than that to get that organized. The other thing, Brendan, that people forget or have a misapprehension about, is money is better saved by parents than the students, simply because the expectation is that students will give approximately 20% of their savings towards the education, where parents are much less than that, typically. More like 5%.
Brendan Sheehan: That leads to a great question, and something that you and I talked about prior to us starting the workshop. If you are the beneficiary of something, whether it's a trust, whether it's a 529 plan, there's still Coverdell education plans out there, very far and few between, but I think that the big question that a lot of people have that are on the call right now is the effect of 529 plans. They've heard that 529 plans aren't as wonderful as people say they are, so talk a little bit about that. How do 529 plans and being the beneficiary of something impact the financial aid picture in general?
Rit Fuller: Well, just in general, I would say as much as you can save in a 529 plan, do it. Because most colleges will be very forgiving of anywhere from $30,000 to $50,000 of that plan. It depends on the institution and their financial circumstance and so forth. That's always a good thing. If it's money from a grandparent or something, they might consider sending it right to the college on behalf of the student themselves rather than giving it to the student. That would make sense. A different tax rate there as well. It's such a different, depending on the quality or the selectivity of the institution, because many institutions today, good places, are starting with merit aid. So, this all becomes almost irrelevant. You could have all the money in the world, and if their merit formula suggests that based on your GPA, typically, on one axis and SATs on another you're qualified for this much money, then they're going to give that to you first and then come to your need based aid afterwards. The Harvard example is one part of it, for the highly selective and very well endowed institution, and then there are others that are somewhere in between. Others are almost all merit aid at this point, just trying to get people to enroll.
Brendan Sheehan: Another question I have, and we talked, again, a little bit about this prior to the workshop, is are there any guidelines? For instance, if you're making $1 million a year, I would imagine that you'd have a tough time qualifying for financial aid, but where is it that you should actually start thinking about it even though you may think that you're making a ton of money with your salary?
Rit Fuller: Well, every financial aid office I've ever spoken with said you won't know unless you apply. I think, at least it used to be, that the FAFSA only went up to six digits, so if you were making beyond 999,999 you wouldn't even be able to show it. I've seen people with financial circumstances, marginal ones, up to $350,000 earn some kind of a need based aid, even if it was simply a subsidized loan or an unsubsidized federal loan that they might not have been able to get, they get slightly better terms. Those kind of things. Again, you don't know whether you apply, but I've seen people in that range. Every institution can tell people who've looked like they should've been off the charts but when it came down to it, I mean, it is still $70,000 plus in an awful lot of places. That's a high number you have to be able to earn to pay for that.
Brendan Sheehan: If I'm hearing you correctly, what you're pretty much saying, Rit, is that everyone should apply and just see what happens.
Rit Fuller: You know, the FAFSA is really not a painful application to fill out, relative to some forms that we all fill out. Yes, sure. What are they going to do? They're not going to send you a smiley face and say what, are you kidding? No, they're just going to say no, you don't qualify.
Brendan Sheehan: Okay, fair enough. Just to summarize everything that's on this slide here, it sounds like, again, the magic date that you really have to start thinking about is December junior year and going into January of junior year. That's when the schools are going to be looking at you, is January junior year through the end of that junior year and then the beginning of senior year. That year is a very important year from making yourself look as legally impoverished as you possibly can by delaying income that could be received, so again another just quick little nugget there. If you can negotiate with your employer to actually give you a bonus before that magic year or after that magic year is done, that would be good to show to a college. From there, it's make sure you apply regardless of how much money you're making. Know the deadlines. And then, be prepared to negotiate. That's something that I'm learning right now, is how important the negotiation is, and that it's almost expected.
Rit Fuller: It is almost expected. Again, if an institution admits somebody, they want to be able to enroll them. They want to try to make it possible. They are there to be helpful, so it's worth the conversation. Absolutely.
Brendan Sheehan: Okay, sounds good. Well, let's open it up to questions. We have some questions here. While we're compiling the questions, Rit, any other final thoughts that you'd want to impart to the audience here?
Rit Fuller: I think one of the things, going back to the negotiation with financial aid, is it's broader than simply that. Rather, explaining financial circumstances are not necessarily easily done on a form. That could be job displacement or health problems or anticipated issues. All kinds of different things. So, a successful negotiation is broader than I just want more money, but it's intended to be part of an explanation, and maybe even a comparison with what institutions have offered.
Brendan Sheehan: Got it, okay. We do have one question here. The question is from a very ambitious parent, which reads what considerations should a parent have when a child is in elementary school, middle school, high school? Is it quote/unquote safe to be not even thinking about college until a certain age? I know that we talked about freshman year being a very important year for course selection and things like that, but prior to 9th grade is there anything that you would advise parents to be channeling their child into?
Rit Fuller: Well, good for you that you're asking that question at this point. You didn't submit this, did you, Brendan? By yourself?
Brendan Sheehan: I didn't, but I know that person very, very well and I won't name the name.
Rit Fuller: The number one thing I would always suggest with anybody is for kids to read. To be read to, to read. To have some love for books, the written word. My favorite candidate of all time, and I've been with a lot of different students, interviewed and met with, over the years was a student who had to take three different forms of transportation to get to his high school in New York City. When he got there, I met with him. He had two book bags. One was all his schoolwork and the other one was filled with the books that he liked to read for pleasure. And this was at a really demanding school. Anyway, the point being that the students who read more do better. I guess the other things is the extent that you can keep your kids off their phones, that they're having some kinds of activities. Whether it's musical or theater, or any kind of club activity. Start experimenting with some of those things. They do make a difference. That student who starts in 9th grade with community service or a job or what have you is just easier to talk about down the road, that kind of a commitment.
Brendan Sheehan: Great, okay. It seems like that's all of our questions today. Rit, again, I'd like to thank you for being our guest today. Little plug for Rit.
Rit Fuller: Excellent.
Brendan Sheehan: Rit has been doing this for four years. He knows his stuff. If you do have specific questions about your child, then feel free to reach out to him at the email address right here. Let me actually highlight it here. Ritfullerconsulting@gmail.com. Again, Rit graciously offered to speak with any Waymark clients individually free of charge for that first meeting. First meeting only. And then, you talked about potentially engaging in something a little bit more formal. That's pretty much all we had. Rit, anything else before we call it a day?
Rit Fuller: Yeah, just thanks for the opportunity. I wish everybody well in this process. You can do this, better than not, to a successful conclusion.
Brendan Sheehan: All right, fantastic. Okay, so with that said, we'll end it here. Make sure to tune in to our next webinar. It's only a few weeks from now. Because of the holidays and everything, we want to make sure that we squeeze one more in before the end of the year. Next one is going to be budgeting around the holidays. We have an awesome, awesome guest, a woman named Melissa Dusetti. She used to work for Quicken, the financial software. She's going to give us some secrets, some tips, and how to manage that holiday budget. That'll be a good one to tune in to as well. Thanks everyone for joining us. Have a great day.